Some 23 of us committed to church planting in Boston and Massachusetts assembled last Saturday (Sept. 23) to consider a plan for evangelizing, leading to and resulting in discipling, leading to and resulting in church planting and church growth. We are grateful to Dick Norwood of 3E Partners for his stimulating and practical seminar. Time for discussion and interaction by participants was limited. I wonder if some might want to interact a bit via this blog? The subject is so important, and there is so much we can learn from each other. Perhaps some feel evangelism is not the best word to use, and you have other terminology you prefer. And what have you discovered, in Boston, in Massachusetts, or elsewhere, about sharing Jesus with people?
posted by Steve at 9/26/2006 08:22:00 AM
16 Comments:
Hi Ralph and gang,
a theological question that rose in my mind from the last gathering around the "evangecube" presentation...which I appreciated very much. Would that we could dialogue together in humility, thoughtfulness, truth and grace! ...my hearts desire.
Some big questions:
Is the scriptural picture of salvation more accurately portrayed as (man's) decisional regeneration or (God's)
Divine revelational regeneration? Does the word "faith" mean "decision" in the Greek when attached to "justification by grace through faith" throughout Romas and Galatians, especially?
look forward to the dialogue.
we are opening our home on Wednesday's @ 7PM. sort of an "organic church plant". Dave put together this web page:
www.god-centered.com
peace,
danny
Did the speaker a few weeks ago really use the evangecube in his talk?
steve,
that is affirmative. no shortage of desire for Godly things, an A+ for zeal and he's out "doing" missions. but many questions are raised...hence, my post. what do you think about decisional regeneration, in light of passages like Romans 4, for example?
I might have answered your questions differently a few years ago, DAO, but I have undergone a radical re-understanding of the Christian faith in the last few years. First off, I happen to believe that Christianity is far more "lifestyle" than "set of beliefs." Recognize that I am not saying that what we do saves us, but that humans do come to a point where they choose the Way of Jesus over the way of self/the world. Simply believing that Jesus existed or even "died on cross for my sins" does not seem to be enough to consider oneself a Christian, and Scripture supports this ("not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord...'", etc.).
So, to me, "evangelism" is more about modeling the Way of Christ in all its fullness in the world around us, having an answer for those who recognize this "different way," and inviting others into that lifestyle. It is by God's grace that we are able to live into this Way of Jesus, who is our righteousness.
So my answer to your question," Is it more decisional regeneration or divine regeneration?" is a resounding "Yes." We are not automotrons, and yet we also are weak and broken without the Divine. I guess that on the Calvinism-Armenianism continuum, I'm somewhere in the middle.
two thoughts come to mind:
1. God, in the scriptures, says that Promise creates faith and faith produces works, not vice versa. "I believe, therefore I said" (2 cor 4.13)...and do...
we can only say/do according to what God has truly convinced us of in His great and gracious Promises...these(say/so) are the works/fruit of faith. One comes before the other, and the Promise/certainty is never alone.
2. the finite can never peer into the Infinite, therefore God must rend, tear open, the heavens and come down, as it were(Is 64.1ff). this sort of scenario is clear from Luke 24.13-35 in Jesus dealing with those on the road to emmaus. they cannot decide to comprehend the incomprehensible One and His plan! Divine revelation dismantles any (fallen, and therefore dead!) human decision.
may God grant us insight into His will and ways and may that make a real difference in all of life to the glory and praise of God.
I look forward, Steve, meeting face to face.
blessings bro
danny
hi taylor. welcome to the conversation. ya, this is fun stuff, very enjoyable to express understanding and learn together.
to be breif as to this specific thought you brought to the table:
" To take one and make it distinct from the other simply renders both lifeless--they are entirely interdependent concepts that have no real meaning alone."
May I suggest a slow and close reading of the first 3 chapters in the Bible? i hope i don't sound trite, cutsy or simplistic. i don't mean to, if i'm taken that way. But what I see here is the model, paradigm, framework of anything redemptive and what will unfold in the rest of the sacred scripture in beautiful story, throughout history, centering on Jesus. and it is simply this:
The Holy, Awesome, Majestic, Triune God...actually, truly, wonderfully, mysteriously saves(in evey sense) His people from the wreckage of their idolatry and sin galore, not bringing His Just wrath upon their skull...instead, pours out His wrath upon Himself, pardons all their sin,(of which it is deep) thereby removing the 2 great obstacles that allow God to graciously bring man back to worship and delight in Himself, as He creates a new being, fit now to magnify God in a plethora of good works, bringing true glory to God and not to man...and does He not do this through a sovereign, unconditional, free, grace promise? I read He does, and this promise of grace, not just wrath, totally blows us away. simply, GOD SAVES SINNERS...all by Himself.
do note in Gen 1-3, God's eternality, ingenius creative design, goodness, sovereignty, power, authority...and in ch 3, He seperates the woman(& her seed) from the serpent! crushed the seed of the serpent, promising grace to her & her seed...and then changing their clothes in v.21! what Divine accomplishment of redemption for them! I am just blown away...for that is a picture of God's dealings with me.
I know for me, since 1982 at the Boston Billy Graham Crusade, I went looking for chics and came out with Jesus. blown away as I sat in my chair, long before any invitation to decide for Jesus. (there was no decision to make), as God showed clearly the wretchedness of my sin, which broke me...and the melting sweetness of His love, in that even though i was what i am before God (woe is me!, like Isaiah and job) Jesus Christ loved me and gave Himself for me.
Goerge whitefield once asked: "does God breaketh every heart alike? he answered no. I agree. but before God makes a new man, He kills the old. He may not break every heart alike...but He does break every heart He then goes on to redeem.(Jer 32.36-41)
this is too lofty for adam and his children to do. this must be revealed, ie, faith, and when this gift of certainty is given...wow, no stopping such a person!
"For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen." (rom 11.36)
much grace, peace and rejoicing in Jesus Christ, our LORD and SAVIOR.
danny
PS brevity is difficult sometimes, huh? i like talking face to face better ;)
PS, a friend sent me this link, a 10 minute excerpt from "The Supremacy of Jesus...over everything. i was blessed, hope you too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYGLl0gO1dk
Danny
DAO-
First off, you are correct – this is fun! I think we can disagree on many of these issues and remain brothers in Christ, but the dialogue certainly strengthens both of our arguments. (what is it they say? In any argument, there are three positions: yours, mine, and the right answer.)
My response to your account of your own conversion would be this: Yes, God pursued you heavily, and had been pursuing you for many years. But you took the step to attend the Crusade. You heard a convicting message from the Lord through Billy Graham, and you voluntarily responded to that message. Many who were sitting around you did not respond, even though they had not yet accepted the life and teachings of Christ. You did. Why you and not others?
I would just say that however strong the pursuit of God on the human heart, the last step (or first step?) toward entering the Way of Jesus is always ours. God doesn’t do involuntary, hostile takeovers. Even in the case of Saul on the Damascus Road, there is pretty good evidence that there were spiritual landmarks in Saul’s life leading up to that conversion (for example, how might seeing Stephen’s stoning have affected Saul?). Could Saul have walked away from Jesus on that road? I think he necessarily could have. (unfortunately, we only have sketchy background on Saul’s life, so we don’t know for sure the state of his spiritual walk when he was blinded on the Damascus Road … but we must assume that seeds had been planted enough to where he was able to accept God’s call for him there).
My thorough reading of Genesis 1-3 reveals that even when humanity lived in the utopian world of Eden, they had the power to choose their own way. If that freedom existed then, we must believe it exists now. We have the power to both accept or reject the way of Jesus for our own way, or else we are only robots, and God has the remote control.
Good discussion!
yes, good discussion indeed!
my thoughts on adam & his wife gravitate to their being "very good" as all of God's incredible creation was/is, even before either took of the fruit and ate, they "desired it". just how sinlessly perfect were they? I really don't know. I really don't. I wonder, but I don't know, and one day may learn. Furthermore, i am baffled at what they did with their supposed free will. what a plunge they...me...you...and all humanity took! thankfully, Genesis 3 presents something redemptive. in particular, gen 3.15 & 21. so my question to myself is, to whom does redemption belong? who is the giver, who is the givee (sp)? who is the Savior, what does a savior do...and who is desperately in need of saving? i see here, The just, Holy and Righteous God not giving these 2 souls what they rightly deserve for their rebellion...but being gracious to them, mercying and pitying them in the foreshadowing of Christ, the victor over the serpent - by the crushing of his head in triumph on the cross and incredibly rising from the dead. what a mercy of God to seperate the woman's (and man's) allegiance with the serpent(15a), crush him in every way(15b)...and pulling off the garment exchange of the ages!(v21)
this is all and only of God's doing...for those who know deep down inside, they do not, nor cannot do this incredible thing for themselves! they cannot bring themselves back into favor with God! what man can pull off, or assist, in a new birth?
soli deo gloria...soli!
much love and grace,
danny
PS, coffe, or a brew on me, face to face?
this a message that you shoud consider listening to as the great, needed and useful conversation continues.
geace and peace to you in the gift of this day!
here it is...
http://desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/EventMessages/ByDate/1828_The_Supremacy_of_Christ_and_Joy_in_a_Postmodern_World/
DAO - I actually listened to Piper's "Supremacy...Postmodern World" speech a few weeks back. Thanks for reminding me of it again, though. Piper makes some important points and has some valid critiques of the emergent movement.
Andrew Jones (Tall Skinny Kiwi) discusses Piper's talk on postmodernity here and here and raises some helpful critiques of Dr. Piper's treatment of postmodernity, emergent, and other important issues. So I hope you'll take a look at Jones' critique.
Every time I want to post a response, Taylor has taken the words right out of my mouth. I have to agree with much of what Taylor has been writing in terms of the tension between God's salvific act and our conscious decision to join God's story, as well as our participation with God in bringing healing to a broken and dying world. Letting the pendulum swing to either extreme (neither of which is biblical) brings disastrous results in the here and now, from an irreverence of the Creator God and works-based faith ("salvation is all man's doing") to a faith that disregards the world in which we were placed and over which we "have dominion" ("God saved me, so I'm off the hook"). Those are obviously extremes, and I'm not putting you in either camp -- just bringing them out here to say that we must hold those idealogies in a healthy tension.
Great conversation. Enjoying it. Would love to take you up on the face-to-face and bubbly sometime, though...
gents,
here here to the bubly!
yes great interaction in humble, thoughtful ways. I think this pleases God, as we wrestle with such weighty, beautiful things!
Question: does faith(saving:justifying/sanctifying/glorifying) faith mean "decision" in any sense? Can the Greek word "pistis" carry the element of "decision"? Is "pistis" a noun or a verb? Does this even matter?
I contend it does...and in such a huge way...
Follow Paul's line of thought as he unfold's in Romans the Gospel of God, concerning Christ and the issue of righteousness...how does righteousness come? by law-keeping, or by faith? Notice the connection between "grace" and "faith". what do these terms mean? how we define our terms makes all the difference.
so much to discuss & learn, so little time...more on faith to come.
peace.
DAO - I may be going out on a shaky limb here (to some), but I think that one of the unfortunate results of Lutheran Reformation was a tendency since then to put equal or more weight on the words of Paul than the words of Jesus. The early church fathers lived and breathed the words of Jesus, as the Christians of the first few centuries did (some of them by oral tradition only).
It bears reminding that Paul's words in the epistles were words to specific churches in specific contexts, and they must be read as such. They still have enormous implications for our lives and the life of the church today, but I would tend to spend more time in the gospels than the Pauline epistles for a model of salvation, grace, faith, and ministry.
I am not throwing out substitutionary penal atonement here (the images of our hopelessness without God are unmistakable), but I would like to suggest a broader view of salvation. In the gospels, I see salvation as occuring when people leave everything to follow Jesus. Jesus does not put a whole lot of emphasis on the legal substitution of his eminent death on a cross (he focuses more on the "shame" and "obedience" of the cross), but he does emphasize "following" and the virtues that accompany "following Jesus."
I have also heard it said that "faith" and "belief" in John, for instance, are more connected to obedience to Jesus than acceptance of propositional truths about Him. This would suggest a salvation wrapped in lives committed to living in the different way of Jesus. It would also suggest (and I believe Scripture supports this thought) that our lives now are not trivial; the kingdom of God is both now and to come. God is working to redeem the cosmos to himself, starting with us here on earth, and we can join Him in that work.
I know that's a lot to chew on, but those ideas have really transformed my view of "salvation" over the last few years. I used to be a Christian happy to have "made it to Heaven," and now I am more happy to be a part of God's redemptive work throughout the world on the earth now.
steve,
me thinks i hear a linb cracking...here to catch you bro...
any simple google search will yeild no shortage of fruit from luther, calvin & co on sermons and commentaries on the gospels. you seem to pit paul vs Jesus. makes me wonder what your take is on the canon of scripture? if we're on different ground here, there's alot to cover. Genesis to revelation? yep for me. Apocrapha in or out? out for me.
isn't there a seemless thread from beginning to end, God saving sinners by grace through faith...always producing good works? never any good works leveredging grace in response, thus making God a debtor to us? do we earn God's favor as we follow Him? if so, honestly, how are you doing "following Him"? more fundamentally, how does He prescribe that you follow Him? give it your best shot, or perfectly?seems like your approaching God on the basis of law-keeping. no?
let me state i am not for mere assent to propositional truths to get you "in". God's gracious promise is "tasted" in light of the certainty of impending just judgement...and this is something that also is much deeper than some superficial nodding of the head that one is not perfect, a sinner. one feels the weight of glory, "other glory" that grinds to powder and the holiness, justice and wrath of it, to the point where one is about to pee their proverbial pants. in this dilemma, the shaken soul is promised grace! wow, God merci-ing that one and PROMISING them good in Jesus. no shortage of pictures throughout the gospels, OT & NT letters. all one seamless thread, from Adam to the end, that God, Father, Son, Spirit, saves completely and to the depths and of His own free-will, whom, when, where and why He pleases. No wonder He gets all the glory and we get none of it. i have none to boast of. no decision, no will-power, no helping God out or finalizing the deal, no contribution to this saving mercy except my sin! that's all i got to offer God, nothing good in this flesh.
well, done pecking at the keyboard for tonight.
hey man, loving the interaction. do pray God will mercy you and me afresh tonight and remind us both, and all who may be following this, that Jesus is Lord, the way the truth and the life...what a Treasure. abandon lesser treasures for this greater ONE.
danny
I, too, accept the entirety of the canon. In fact, encouraging brothers and sisters to accept and live more fully into the ongoing narrative of God has been one of my passions. So when I read this narrative, I see a God who, as N.T. Wright writes in his newest book, Simply Christian: Why Christianity Makes Sense,
In the early storeis, the point was that the Creator loved the world he had made, and wanted to look after it in the best possible way. To that end, he placed within his world a looking-after creature, a creature who would demonstrate to the creation who he, the Creator, really was, and who would set to work developing the creation and making it flourish and fulfill its purpose. This looking-after creature (or rather, this family of creatures: the human race) would model and embody that interrelatedness, that mutual and fruitful knowing, trusting and loving, which was the Creator's intention. Relationship was part of the way in which we were meant to be fully human, not for our own sake, but as part of a much larger scheme of things. And our failures in human relationship are thereby woven into our failures in the other large projects of which we know in our bones that we are part: our failure to put the world to rights in systems of justice, and our failure to maintain and develop that spirituality which, at its heart, involves a relationship of trust and love with the Creator.
I know that's a long passage, but Wright really encapsulates God's "dream" for the world, and our failure to live into that dream. This, of course, is why I am so thankful for Christ: We cannot bring about the world God dreams of on our own. (and, to answer your question, I am certainly not "following Jesus" perfectly. I am a sinner saved by grace, but joyful to continue in obedience and participation with God in his continuing work in the world)
You see, God's dream didn't end at the cross. I think we agree there. He is the same as he always was, and his dream is the same as it always was: to establish a world that perfectly reflects his glory and the interrelatedness of perfect relationship (see Wright's passage above). We are not merely saved so that we can get to heaven — God still uses us as his "looking-after creature" (now that's mercy!) in a broken world, despite our sin. It's not about "law-keeping" (after all, creating a God-like world through the Ten Commandments didn't work out so well...), but about being saved by grace (through faith in Christ) into a life of mission, of praise, of purity, and of participation with God as His kingdom continues to break forth in all the earth.
This conversation has been so stimulating to me, and I have put off responding to your last comment because I wanted to think and pray about them extensively. You bring some good questions which are not easily answered, but we do know that all knowledge will come when are with our Creator forever. Until then, may we bask in His grace, join in His mission, and worship His holy name.
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